Game of Thrones - Season Two Discussion (TV show only)

[SpaceSquid]

Originally Posted by deGooder

Will try to give this a go across the bank holiday weekend but if I don't I think I'll end up not bothering with it as the first series never did fully suceed in drawing me in and fear there are now even less sympathetic character than before.

If the last season didn't work, I'd be surprised if this episode turns you around. It might be worth waiting a couple of weeks and then going through a few at once. This episode was very much a "This is the new state of play" sort of a deal; the most visually interesting way possible of setting up a chessboard.

(Though if you're worried about not being able to sympathise with a wife who's lost her husband, six kids who've lost their father, a young girl who's lost her brother, her husband, and her position of royalty (twice), or the attempts of brave men to save the land from a horde of demons and zombies, then there's probably no hope for you )

Originally Posted by hammard

I. I can see a lot of historical and fantastical parallels for Rickon (the sickly youngest child who overcomes infermity) and Sansa (the young bride forced into a loveless marraige) but Arya seems quite unique. I guess MMV.

I'm not sure I've seen it suggested Rickon is sickly. All anyone ever seems to say about his is that he's very young and pretty much useless.

The really interesting aspect to Rickon I think is this: what happens when you give a kind-of wet six year old a wolf the size of a small horse. Last year though they didn't really do anything with that, though - aside from terrifying Osha in the crypts.

Originally Posted by Tiny

That confuses me, his father was Eddard Stark, so why is he called John Snow? I assume it's just to prevent him from having hereditary rights or something?

That's exactly why he's called Snow. He was born out of wedlock, and he's Snow either because he was born in the North, or because that's where his father is from (I'm not sure exactly how it works). Interestingly, in Westeros, a lord can choose to legitimate one of his bastard sons or daughters. Eddard chose not to do that, which I presume was in order to keep Catelyn happy.

[count_libido]

Originally Posted by SpaceSquid

That's exactly why he's called Snow. He was born out of wedlock, and he's Snow either because he was born in the North, or because that's where his father is from (I'm not sure exactly how it works). Interestingly, in Westeros, a lord can choose to legitimate one of his bastard sons or daughters. Eddard chose not to do that, which I presume was in order to keep Catelyn happy.

In Westeros, there is a standar surname for bastards depending on which of the Seven Kingdoms you are born in. In the north, it's Snow for obvious reasons. Other names in other areas are Stone, Rivers, Flowers, Hill and Pyke.

Great start to the second series. I look forward to seeing more of the Watch beyond the Wall and Tyrion as the new Hand of the King. I really hate Joffrey but it's the sign of a good character to be able to provoke a strong reaction in the audience.

[kahless]

Originally Posted by Tiny

That confuses me, his father was Eddard Stark, so why is he called John Snow? I assume it's just to prevent him from having hereditary rights or something?

Lords having bastards is obviously such done thing in Westeros that there are a whole set of rules concerning them. Chiefly is their given name.

All northern bastards (not just Starks but any Northern Lord) are known as Snow for obvious reasons. Bastards from the Riverland's are called Rivers, the Stormlands, Storm, I think the Frey's call their's Towers. There is one for those from the Vale but can't remember it now.

Originally Posted by Tiny

And yeah, Rickon, I think I glimpsed him briefly during season one. Wasn't sure if there were any others either. Probably should check the booklet that came with the BluRay, I think it has family trees.

He is seen briefly in the first episode (Rickon is the child sat on the fence laughing when Arya upstages Bran at archery) and you see him a couple of other times later on.

The legitimate Stark children go Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon. Jon Snow is roughly the same age as Robb bar a few months.

[vonbloodbath]

Originally Posted by count_libido

In Westeros, there is a standar surname for bastards depending on which of the Seven Kingdoms you are born in. In the north, it's Snow for obvious reasons. Other names in other areas are Stone, Rivers, Flowers, Hill and Pyke.

Great start to the second series. I look forward to seeing more of the Watch beyond the Wall and Tyrion as the new Hand of the King. I really hate Joffrey but it's the sign of a good character to be able to provoke a strong reaction in the audience.

I always wondered about that: what happens if a snow has a family? Are they snows too? Wouldn't the world be overrun by Snows et al?

[kahless]

Originally Posted by hammard

Interestingly, for me it is the opposite. I can see a lot of historical and fantastical parallels for Rickon (the sickly youngest child who overcomes infermity)

You sure you don't mean Bran?

[kahless]

Originally Posted by vonbloodbath

I always wondered about that: what happens if a snow has a family? Are they snows too? Wouldn't the world be overrun by Snows et al?

Jon did sort of touch on this subject in a conversation he had with Sam in S1. They were talking about whether either of them had ever "done it" with a woman, Jon said he nearly had but then thought about what if he got her pregnant, he'd doom another child to life as a bastard.

I think any children of bastards are tainted by what their parents are and so maybe not many have families. Judging by some things Tyrion and Jamie said I'm assuming most male bastards end up on the Wall as that's the only place they have any worth.

[SpaceSquid]

Originally Posted by count_libido

In Westeros, there is a standar surname for bastards depending on which of the Seven Kingdoms you are born in. In the north, it's Snow for obvious reasons. Other names in other areas are Stone, Rivers, Flowers, Hill and Pyke.

There's also Storm and Sand, of course, but that's not quite what I was getting at. What I'm wondering is what would happen if, say, Eddard had fathered a bastard whilst fighting against Balon Greyjoy in the Iron Islands? Would the child be, say, Jimmy Pyke, because he was born in the Iron Islands? Or would he be Jimmy Snow, because he was born to a lord of the North? And would it depend on whether Jimmy stayed in the Iron Islands, or came back to Winterfell with his father, like Jon did?

ETA:

Originally Posted by vonbloodbath

I always wondered about that: what happens if a snow has a family? Are they snows too? Wouldn't the world be overrun by Snows et al?

Depends on how often lords father bastards, I suppose (or more to the point, how often they admit to it). I always assumed that most peasants etc. don't have surnames at all. Mainly that's because in the books whenever Martin rattles off a list of Night's Watch people, most of them are only referred to by one name, but every now and then a bastard surname shows up as well.

My assumption is that if Jon were to get Ros pregnant, the resulting child would be a bastard in the sense of its parents not being married, but it wouldn't necessarily be given a surname at all. It depends how far from noble blood you can be before you have to stop using the name.

In fact, that's what's interesting about Jon being called "Lord Snow" up at the wall, On one level, they're taking the piss, because he's the eldest child of the most powerful lord for two hundred leagues, and that hasn't gotten him anywhere. On the other hand, though, being Jon Snow still gives him higher social standing than most of his comrades, which probably annoyed them something chronic even before he started beating the crap out of them.

[kahless]

Originally Posted by SpaceSquid

There's also Storm and Sand, of course, but that's not quite what I was getting at. What I'm wondering is what would happen if, say, Eddard had fathered a bastard whilst fighting against Balon Greyjoy in the Iron Islands? Would the child be, say, Jimmy Pyke, because he was born in the Iron Islands? Or would he be Jimmy Snow, because he was born to a lord of the North? And would it depend on whether Jimmy stayed in the Iron Islands, or came back to Winterfell with his father, like Jon did?

I'd assume he/she would take the name of the father, if that isn't known then they'd take the name of the area they are born & live in.

[kahless]

Taken from A Wiki of Ice & Fire - NON-spoilery.

Bastard names in Westeros

Flowers is the name for the Reach
Hill is the name for the Westerlands
Pyke is the name for the Iron Islands
Rivers is the name for the Riverlands
Sand is the name for Dorne
Snow is the name for the North
Stone is the name for the Vale
Storm is the name for the Stormlands
Waters is the name for the Crownlands.

Rights of Inheritance

The baseborn have few rights under the law and custom when it comes to rights of inheritance. A bastard may inherit if the father has no other trueborn children nor any other likely kin to follow him. Additionally, a bastard can inherit if he is legitimized by a royal decree. However, a legitimized bastard falls in the order of succession at the end, after all trueborn offspring, including daughters.

Thus the custom states that bastards who take arms (noble born, knighted, etc.) take the coat of arms of their fathers with the colors reversed, with the possible addition of a red bar sinister, as exemplified by Ser Walder Rivers.

However, any man can be knighted, even a bastard. A bastard may even be appointed to the Kingsguard. In the Night's Watch, any man may rise to command, no matter the circumstances of their birth.

[hammard]

Originally Posted by kahless

You sure you don't mean Bran?

Yeah 'tis *facepalm*. TBH I didn't even remember Rickon as a character. I had to look up who he was.