Grand National 2012

[runalong]

20 horses have died since 2000

2 out of 40 seems high and racing is a lot more than once a year. I'm not sure this race is still any safer as a kid it was a family event to place the bet. Now I tend to ignore it and hope for the best result for the horses

[Boo]

Originally Posted by runalong

Now I tend to ignore it and hope for the best result for the horses

Yeah me too. I know there are worse things going on in the world and it's not the desired result, but I find it very upsetting when horses end up having to be put down.

[Richard L]

So 1.8 horses die per year at the National? Of course some years are soft and others are carnage. I agree that it is a rough and tough race. I wouldn't put my horse into it. However I don't like steeplechase anyway, I like speed racing on the flat ala Seabiscuit.

However I don't want the excitement to be so drained out of the sport that it ends up like F1. Hyper trained athletes, nothing like normal human beings, all in their 20s racing cars that have no danger in them, the only way to get a drive paying the team to get in. The slight sense of danger is part of the reason that the National is such a success and why winning is such a big thing.

Oddly enough in day to day racing I don't think there is a case to be made against some of the cheating and bs that dogs it. Moreover there is no real payoff in excitement with most day to day races. Just betting and more betting. Its like this, a high risk once a year is fine if that is what the horse was bred for. But to take stupid risks daily makes it an inevitability that there will be lots of suffering that occurs out of all proportion with the glory of winning.

Entering the National is a calculated risk. As an owner I'd really be doubtful about putting any horse of mine in unless it was trained to win it. Anything else would be recklessness.

I'm conflicted, but I do think there is too much 'safety' in sport. That said, a return in F1 to the horror of 1994 would not be something I would advocate. I think the reason F1 turned to carnage in that year was the removal of driver aids and machines that were near uncontrollable as a result. The turbo era was a great spectacle but drivers died. It was a terrible thing, but as Stirling Moss has said to paraphrase . 'I think Formula 1 should be dangerous.' (To an extent I think he meant.) The same applys here. Of course drivers have the choice to get in the car or not, so do jockeys. (Again only to an extent as they need to eat and live.) Horses unlike cars are living things, so there are always going to be people who see a risk and automatically think that means cruelty because the animal gets no say. Only the animal does get a say, they actually LIKE racing and will continue trying to win after the rider has fallen off. As to whether a horse understands the risk... its a bloody horse. We'll be asked to give it the vote next. j/k

The stats are not that shocking for the National, but overall for Horse Racing, yeah they could do a lot to make the weekday races safer I'm sure without really hurting their money making business.

The whole thing is complicated by one thing. Like most people on here I suspect, I too did not bother to watch. Not that exciting after all?

[Sensei Ping]

Originally Posted by Richard L

Horses unlike cars are living things, so there are always going to be people who see a risk and automatically think that means cruelty because the animal gets no say. Only the animal does get a say, they actually LIKE racing and will continue trying to win after the rider has fallen off. As to whether a horse understands the risk... its a bloody horse. We'll be asked to give it the vote next. j/k

I agree, all animals die, all human animals die, few animals get any choice in the matter of how they die, or how much pain they will have to endure doing so

I found the Grand National entertaining to watch, but had no desire to bet on the outcome. I have done in the past tho' and profited

you may think its deriving pleasure and financial gain from other creatures suffering, but who decides whether the sentient participants are suffering, and if so by how much?

Its very easy to anthropomorphize the horses simply because we have no other frame of reference, but the horses carrying on racing because that is what they do, it's all they do...

[runalong]

It's what they're bred to do - its what they're trained from an early age to do. It's not some inbred joy to race a circuit it's training. Wild horses don't do organised racing

It's not about anthromorphication its more a duty of care that owners should show their animals - more general decency. If you are forced into a job and it carried a risk of death you may want to see the employer take sufficient measures in health Nd safety. If you knew that their measures are not working then you may may want change. As for who decides if it doesn't work well I'm glad someone takes an interest the alternative is just lazy what will be will be attitudes if something needlessly dies for negligence then it needs to be stopped. And if a broken leg and being shot isn't suffering then let me know what is. Unlike cars horses are harder to repair and are alive

If F1 is boring because it's safe tough if you need to see a crash go down a motorway - if it's boring find something else

[Sensei Ping]

Originally Posted by runalong

It's what they're bred to do - its what they're trained from an early age to do. It's not some inbred joy to race a circuit it's training. Wild horses don't do organised racing

nearly all horses have been domesticated by humans, and are therefore doing something unnatural to them, and they have been for nearly six thousand years

its a bit late to start getting picky about what they do of a weekend, at the behest of their undoubtedly evil human overlords

[runalong]

Sorry I'm not talking about evil owners I'm asking if they're taking sufficient steps to look after their animals

We have also domesticated and bred dogs for a similar time but if they're not trained then they do their own thing too. Surprised you think racing is a genetic trait - being fast is. I'm not saying ban it I'm saying make it safer. Do you have similar views on poor ownership of dogs for example?

[Boo]

Originally Posted by Sensei Ping

nearly all horses have been domesticated by humans, and are therefore doing something unnatural to them, and they have been for nearly six thousand years

its a bit late to start getting picky about what they do of a weekend, at the behest of their undoubtedly evil human overlords

Just because something has been done or done a certain way for a long period of time, doesn't make it right.

[Radical Edward]

Originally Posted by Sensei Ping

nearly all horses have been domesticated by humans, and are therefore doing something unnatural to them, and they have been for nearly six thousand years

its a bit late to start getting picky about what they do of a weekend, at the behest of their undoubtedly evil human overlords

I wouldn't say that domestication is the problem, its when we abuse and take advantage of the relationship we have with animals that is. The way horses are treated as commodities is, to be blunt, disgusting. You would not treat people that way so way makes it right to do it to a horse or any other animal?

To say that its a bit late to start complaining now is unbelievable tbh. Because with that attitude you could justify any act of cruelty just as long as it has a precedent.

[pmyumjr]

Originally Posted by Radical Edward

The way horses are treated as commodities is, to be blunt, disgusting. You would not treat people that way so way makes it right to do it to a horse or any other animal?

Yeah, i think this is the sticking point. No i would not do this to a human. Is treating animals as a commodity disgusting i'm afraid No. You are over anthromorphising(?) horses.

Anyone that has owned a pet has treated an animal as a commodity. Equating pets to slavery as you just have, is damaging your otherwise reasoned anti cruelty stand point.

Not to mention the fact that people are still treated that way all over the world, weather it be as actual slaves/serf's or only slightly better economic slaves forced to toil day in day out to survive by a small group who control their nations wealth.

The average National horse has a much better life than a child picking through trash in Africa, and lets be honest here probably a much better life than some people in Britain. According to Pete one of the 2 horses i was very sad to see lost their lives during this years national, was a much loved family pet. He was treated very very well, and loved dearly by his owners who are devasteted by his death.